Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: I am so excited today. I've been running around. How do you even prepare for an interview like this that you're so excited for? You really can't prepare to talk to someone that you admire as much as I admire doctor Michael Greger. He also it's impossible to even just skim the surface in a 1 hour conversation of brilliance and kindness and depth that he brings forward for all of us to consider as we approach our health.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: Plant protein sources are far superior, replacing just 3% of daily calories from animal protein with plant protein associated with a 10% decreased risk of all cause mortality. In the largest prospective study on diet and health in human history, the NiHAARP study, and in the Harvard cohorts, plant protein beat out every type of animal protein, not just red meat and processed meat, but fish, chicken, dairy, for decreasing mortality risk.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: You can watch a lot of podcasts and you can listen to a lot of people. No one can pack as much science, knowledge and words into an answer as this man can. He is an incredible human being. I feel very certain that I can say that I am not going to give you this long list of tips and tricks and all of these things, because what I hope is that from the things that you will learn through this conversation, you will go and you will read his books and you will subscribe or donate like I have, to nutritionfacts.org dot. You will make it part of your own life structure to seek in this way and to not be fooled. I'm not a podcast host in the typical sense. I'm community driven. I care about showing up here with all of you when I have someone that I care to speak to, that I look up to, and I really am looking forward to speaking to doctor Michael Greger and I absolutely look up to him.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: All right, so you know who's with us this morning to help us get moving, we have fitness expert Tracy Anderson.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Tracy Anderson. Tracy Anderson. I'm so grateful to her.
Okay, Doctor Gregor, if I could interview anyone in the world, I don't know how many people tell you this. You're it for me and you're really it for me. So I'm a mover. My love language is in choreography and getting people to understand the complexity of their bodies and what they're capable of doing in a much more dynamic way than just putting 1ft in front of the other. But I was wondering if you would be on your walking pad today. I can't believe I'm getting sitting down.
[00:02:51] Speaker B: No, I actually am, but I haven't turned off because, you know, I don't want to make people seasick. Really? I think I've gotten complaints.
[00:03:00] Speaker A: Oh, well, I'm okay with it. I'm actually.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: But are your.
[00:03:04] Speaker A: But are your viewers, if you haven't gotten your steps in today, it will give me anxiety. So what I would like for you to do is I would really like for you to try what I. My contribution.
It's my life's work so far in the. In the. In the field of movement. I would love for you to try it sometime because it's. It's more complex than. Than the walking pad, but.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: I feel like you would be up for it.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: Can I work while I do it?
[00:03:33] Speaker A: This is the thing. I think that.
Well, one of the reasons why I think that you're so amazing and rare, especially today in this field of, well, where we've gotten to with medicine and food and lack of movement and disconnection and sort of, I call it like a large surge of denaturing our human potential.
Now we've got social media and we have instagram. So educators and researchers and doctors, scientists, whatever you call yourself, like yourself, you have this ability to have this voice, right? But you're up against the very difficult engine that continues to run rampant, which is how I was coming up after I did. I did my own little sort of, like, I don't know what you call it, micro study on 150 women for five years before I, like, I had done nine years of very quiet, quiet work before I ever felt that I had anything to offer. Focused, very, very truth seeking, focused, tough work. And it was more the popularity of what the outcome of people moving with me was so intense that it grew from there. But then I got put into the wheel of the press, which I think just dumbs us down in such a grotesque way. Like, how do you get Jennifer Lopez's butt in three moves? How do you get Gwyneth palter's legs in five moves? This is like the opposite of everything that I worked so hard to contribute to everyone. But, I mean, first of all, you can't. There are no moves to get somebody else's body parts. But also the bigger problem is, why do you want their body parts?
[00:05:28] Speaker B: Right?
[00:05:29] Speaker A: So anyway, but. But now on Instagram, you know, you are up against so many people who are preying on those same emotions. People, women wanting to look better, people wanting to be sexier, more desirable.
Now we're starting to shift to people want to age longer and want to be healthy. But still, that vain conversation is very strong and loud.
So I find you to be very, very, very refreshing and like this beacon of light in a complicated sort of, you know, place. So, first of all, just thank you for everything you do with nutritionfacts.org. dot.
Thank you for all of your incredible truth seeking research and the contributions and the bite size contributions that will lead people, hopefully, to read your book. So I don't, in this conversation, I don't want you to give all the quick tips and tricks that you might in most interviews, because I want people to actually read your books. I want them to actually go and do the work that will improve their character.
But I just want to start with, I'm plant based. I'm vegan now, but I was bit by a tick about seven years ago, and I got this allergy called alpha Gal. Have you heard of that?
[00:06:58] Speaker B: Sure. I have videos on it on nutritionfacts.org. dot.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: Great. Oh, my gosh. How have I missed those? So, I grew up in Indiana with, like, meatloaf and potatoes and all of that kind of diet, midwestern diet, BLT's and all the things. And I found that once I was able to successfully get my body to look like it was super healthy through movement, that I thought it was amazing that I could just eat cheeseburgers and french fries and not gain weight like I had used that I used to. And then I read the China study, and I became vegan because of that book.
And then I've sort of, like, just bounced around in conflict for years with it until I discovered you, and then I felt very sure in it. But today, I serve a very loyal and large audience of primarily women in 53 different countries. And I'm 49 and should be hitting perimenopause, although my blood work doesn't say that I am yet, but whatever. But I'm. Most. Most women my age are hitting perimenopause and menopause, and these women that have worked with me for a long time, there's so much noise about you need to eat meat and lift weights. So I just want to start here, right? I just want to get it out of the way. I want to give my audience what they want. Okay. I don't lift weights. I've done so much research on this. I want to preserve my joints. I want to keep my muscles healthy. We don't need to get into why I don't. But can you talk to me a little bit about this craze of please eat so much meat for menopause? Like, can you. Can you just tell us why plant based is attractive for menopausal women. Can we start there?
[00:08:54] Speaker B: Yeah. No, no. I appreciate you.
The position that people are placed in with this absolute blitz of contradictory messages. And that's actually why I wrote this book. It reminded me a little bit about my last book on weight loss. Both the diet and anti aging industries are just these multibillion dollar behemoths. With so much money in the mix, the temptation to promote products purporting all sorts of preposterous claims is apparently irresistible. Even an educated layperson seeking basic, practical advice in either arena, living lighter or longer, is faced with just an inscrutable barrage of pills and potions. You know, even as a physician, with the luxury of, you know, wading neck deep through the medical literature, it's really been a challenge to tease out, you know, facts from farce. But, you know, that makes the endeavor all the more important, right? If it took me three years to, you know, to sift through all the science, I'm afraid that the casual observer would just kind of have no chance, really, in terms of protein intake and menopause or aging in general. And when it comes to protein and aging, less really may be more. Reducing protein intake, meaning restricting protein intake down to recommended levels. It's actually the only thing I could find that could help block all eleven of the aging pathways, boosting NAD, improving immunity, decreasing oxidative stress, decreasing inflammation, insulin resistance, and the cancer promoting growth hormone igf one. Surprisingly, there's no benefit to adding extra protein to the diets of older men and women in terms of muscle mass, muscle strength, or physical performance. Instead, the excess protein most americans get causes a drop in the prolongevity hormone fgf 21, a drop in testosterone, which plays a role in libido for women, and a worsening of the age accelerating enzyme mtor. So we should really strive to stick to the recommended protein intake, which is 0.8 grams for healthy kilogram body weight, or 0.36 grams for a healthy pound of body weight, which comes out to be about 45 grams a day for the average height woman. 55 grams a day for the average height man.
[00:11:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I found that so refreshing to read in your new book, and also that not all protein is created equal. People have this obsession with animal protein is the protein that you need. Can you talk a little bit about how plant protein is the more perfect or preferred protein for our bodies?
[00:11:42] Speaker B: One of the reason plant sources are preferable is the baggage that comes along with animal protein. Food is a package deal as much as Burger King says you can have it your way. You can't be like, yeah, I'd like the burger, I'd like the iron, the protein, but hold the saturated fat, hold the cholesterol. All right? Whereas, you know, what's the baggage that accompanies plant protein? Well, many of the nutrients that most Americans are lacking, right? A striking 97% of Americans don't reach the recommended minimum daily intake for fiber. 98% of Americans suffer from potassium deficient diets. So, you know, most Americans are getting 60 or 70% more protein than they actually need. Whereas most of our dietary deficiencies are due to the inadequate intake of nutrients concentrated in whole plant foods, which has the fiber and potassium in antioxidants, etcetera.
And people say, yeah, yeah, yeah, but what about protein quality? Well, the concept of protein quality is really only relevant in the context. And so protein quality. So all plants, all plant proteins have all essential amino acids, but in terms of the relative ratio of essential amino acids, there's this concept of protein quality, which is only relevant in the context of protein deficiency. 97% of Americans reach the RDA for protein, and the 3% who don't are typically on severe calorie restricted diets, where they're just not eating enough food, period. Now, in a famine context, where you see this kind of bloated belly syndrome called kwashiorkor, which this combined protein, calorie malnutrition, and that kind of situation where there's not enough protein, well, getting protein that more closely resembles our own flesh is preferable. So, you know, the quote unquote highest quality protein is cannibalism, basically. But, you know, any animal will do. All plant proteins are complete proteins, and that they have all the essential amino acids, but some of them are limiting if you're not getting enough protein, period. But outside of a famine context, the quality of protein really should reflect the clinical effects, in which case, plant protein sources are far superior. Replacing just 3% of daily calories from animal protein with plant protein associated with a 10% decreased risk of all cause mortality. In the largest prospective study on diet and health in human history, the NiHAARP study, and in the Harvard cohorts, plant protein, protein beat out every type of animal protein, not just red meat and processed meat, but fish, chicken, dairy, for decreasing mortality risk.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: Wow. See, that's the thing, is that people are so shallow in where they are willing to dive to make moves for their life, right? They're not willing to dive as deep as you are willing to go. How do you afford the time to.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: Dig well, I mean, look, I mean, maybe they just don't have the time. I mean, so that, I mean, that's.
[00:14:38] Speaker A: That'S why I think the.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: I mean, it's, I mean, it's a tremendous. I mean, there's, you know, just, I mean, this, the latest book, how not to age, ended up with 13,000 citations, right? And those are just the ones that made the cut. But that's because, look, we have, you know, 17 people on staff. We have about 100 active volunteers, and so we have this huge team churning through the peer reviewed medical literature. You know, people don't have the luxury to do that, but I been able to dedicate my life to doing that. And so, basically, like, I read all those studies so you don't have to, basically.
And, you know, every year I read through every english language nutrition journal in the world, so busy folks like you don't have to.
And, you know, then compile all the most interesting, groundbreaking practical findings to new videos and articles. I upload everyday nutritionfacts.org and then take some of the more juicy pieces of that and put it in these series of books.
My next book, which I've just started writing, how not to hurt on dying lifestyle approaches to pain management. Interesting. What we'll find out there should be out December 2026.
[00:15:43] Speaker A: How not to hurt. That's beautiful.
Is it done? Have you already turned it in?
[00:15:49] Speaker B: I have not even started the research.
[00:15:51] Speaker A: Okay.
I definitely want you to take my. I want you to take my class before you finish. How not to hurt I know you're primarily on what goes in the mouth, but I feel like how not to hurt has a lot to do with your relationship with your body, your mind body connection, your relationship with relationships and sleep and all of the things. Right. Well, you'll find out places you'll.
[00:16:17] Speaker B: Okay, I'll go wherever the science takes me.
[00:16:21] Speaker A: I love it. I love it. So something that people don't talk about very much or even I think understand, but this, there's so much fasting right now. I just want to kind of get some of these fads out of the way because I love your take on it, how the fasting doesn't really hold up because it's mostly on rodents and their metabolisms are faster. And we would, I watched this interview with you how we would have to fast for two straight days to get the.
Can you talk a little bit about this ampk and how you can get it fasting or get it through exercise and then also how vinegar relates to it? Because I watched that interview with you, and I felt like people could really use an education on that.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: Yeah. So Ampk is one of the anti aging pathways, one of the lemon I talk about in the book. The discovery of this anti aging enzyme is considered one of the most important biomedical breakthroughs of the last few decades. It's an energy sensor, so it's activated when we eat less or when we move more. Though there are some food components, like saturated fat, that can actually suppress ampk, whereas others, like fiber, actually boost it. Then there's specific ampk activating compounds in barberries, black cumin, which is type of spice, hibiscus tea and vinegar, the acetic acid and vinegar. So any vinegar. So to help boost this anti aging pathway, I encourage readers to consider at each meal reducing their intake of saturated fat, which is concentrated in meat, dairy, and desserts, increasing their consumption of fiber, which is concentrated in whole grains and legumes, which are beans, split peas, and chickpeas and lentils. And then taking each of the following two teaspoons of barberries, which you get dried. Find them at kind of Middle eastern grocers. A dash like 112 of a teaspoon of ground black cumin and three quarters of a cup of hibiscus tea mixed with a quarter cup of lemon verbena tea. This is all for Ampk activation. And then two teaspoons of vinegar.
[00:18:23] Speaker A: Are you mixing that all together?
[00:18:25] Speaker B: Oh, God, no. I mean, you just find ways to. I mean, you just find way to sprinkle it on food.
[00:18:30] Speaker A: We would all be doing whatever you want to do, by the way.
[00:18:33] Speaker B: Whatever you want to do. So the two teaspoons of vinegar are never taken straight because you burn your esophagus.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: I have to be careful.
[00:18:40] Speaker B: You can dilute it in tea. I mean, you can do kind of. You know, there's all sorts of ways that you can kind of get vinegar. You can mix it in, mix it in a salad dressing, put it on some greens. That would be a great way to do it.
[00:18:51] Speaker A: And you talk about spermidine in the book as well. Which is.
Which one? Wait, that one you founded. That's not the strawberries. That's the autophagy. I know. I don't want to give all these away. I want people to read the book.
[00:19:06] Speaker B: Give it away. Look, we just. I don't quite. It's not about book sales. It's about helping people.
[00:19:11] Speaker A: I know.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: And look, all the proceeds I received from all the sales on books donated directly to charity. So go to your local public library, grab the book, read it. But, yeah, let's cover anything you want to cover.
[00:19:21] Speaker A: I know. Well, I love that. I think that's great. I was really kind of bummed about the coffee because I used to drink coffee, and then I recently gave it up because I came out with this thing, these stones that kind of combine meditation and grounding, sound healing and slow movement. And I couldn't get my brain to kind of, like, empty, like I wanted people to do when they approached this. And so I stopped drinking coffee. And I also noticed that, well, I got my hormones checked because I noticed that I was getting a little bit more anxious before my period. And I didn't really ever have anxiety, so to speak. So I just stopped drinking coffee to see if I could get my mind and my body more in sync. And I feel more relaxed from it. So just as I felt more relaxed with my coffee drinking than I then I read your book on how great coffee actually is.
[00:20:16] Speaker B: No, no. Well, drink decaf.
[00:20:19] Speaker A: The decaf, too.
[00:20:20] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Look, because it's not the caffeine. The active ingredient is the chlorogenic acid, the primary antioxidant in coffee. That's the autophagy boosting compound. And there's just as much in decaf coffee as regular coffee. So you can have all the. Yeah, so, you know, so you don't have those kind of, you know, those side effects that people have.
[00:20:38] Speaker A: Amazing. Amazing. I love that. I love that. So we.
[00:20:42] Speaker B: And same thing with green tea. Same thing with green tea.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: I can't drink green tea. I can't. I get nauseous my whole life, I get nauseous if I drink green tea.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: Well, that's. Well, that's probably. Yeah, it's probably because of the tannins in green tea that can cause that reaction in some people. And so you just never want to drink on an empty stomach. But even with a meal, there's a problem with green tea.
[00:21:02] Speaker A: I mean, I haven't really tried it. Do you think it's something that I could build up a resiliency to.
[00:21:07] Speaker B: No, no. Well, no, you never want to do it on an empty stomach because the tannins for people who are sensitive but drink. But if you don't have an empty stomach, green tea should be fine. The only problem is that it inhibits the absorption of iron, green tea. And so you don't want to be drinking at every meal.
And if you're having any problems with iron deficiency anemia, then you want to avoid tea drinking with meals completely. But that would definitely help with those stomach discomfort.
[00:21:38] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I don't know. I mean, that's the thing with being vegan. I, and I, and I'm, I developed, I guess, an almond allergy because when they were looking for.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:21:49] Speaker A: I don't really understand it, because when the allergist was looking for why I went into this sort of reaction and they found it was the alpha gal, they did a skin test, and almonds came up for me. And I used to always eat almonds. I've always eaten nuts. So that was about five years ago. So I've been afraid of eating nuts ever since then.
[00:22:07] Speaker B: But do you have, but do you have any symptoms when you eat almonds?
[00:22:10] Speaker A: I never had any symptoms.
[00:22:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I mean, it's. Yeah, yeah, I mean, so, I mean, skin testing is more art than science, and so even if you have, you know, a kind of a skin reaction to a food doesn't necessarily mean that it's actually causing you any harm.
[00:22:27] Speaker A: Got it. So I should probably reintroduce nuts because it's really.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: Well, nuts are helpful. Now, if you do have an allergic reaction. Right. If your throat start closing up, if you develop hives, et cetera, then absolutely, you want to stay away from any food that does that. But otherwise, we'd want to include nutsies in our daily diet. So, yeah, palm fur of walnuts a day would be helpful. Unless, of course, you had some issue with walnuts.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: Right, exactly. Walnut. Walnuts. I know, I know. But I do need a lot of legumes. I definitely do follow your fantastic. I do that. I do, I do the sweet potato. I mean, I eat a, I have, I have a vegan chef. I'm lucky. She's amazing. And we publish with the streaming, we publish nothing but vegan recipes for our streamers.
[00:23:12] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:23:13] Speaker A: No, we're in it. But I loved the wheat germ and the flaxseeds. And tempeh is one of my favorite things. What do you, what do you think about tofu and tempeh? Because it's so interesting. I, Doctor Frank Lippmann is my primary care physician, and he really felt like, because my blood work, like two years ago showed that I was in perimenopause, and then I went completely vegan, and I wasn't really eating tofu at all, and I started eating tofu, and then my blood work showed that I wasn't in it, and my periods are regular, and he felt like it was the tofu. He actually, when he looked at my two different labs, he said, did you go on hormone replacement therapy and not tell me? And I was like, absolutely not. I didn't do anything like that. The only change that I made was eating tofu. So will you talk to me a little bit about tofu and tempeh in our diet?
[00:24:06] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. So, I mean, the reason that there's not even a word for hot flash in the japanese language is because they have the highest per capita soy consumption in the world. In fact, there are now interventional studies where you can randomize women to eat whole soy foods, like soy nuts or, you know, whole soybeans, like out of a can, and you have a significant decrease. So going on a plant based diet with half a cup of soybeans a day decreases serious hot flash symptoms by 84% to 88% within a matter of weeks.
And so great, not only for vasomotor symptoms like the night sweats and the, and the hot flashes, but also in terms of the genitourinary symptoms of menopause, so decreasing vaginal dryness and atrophy.
You know, the reason why Japanese Americans have the lowest rates of vaginal dryness in the country? It's because they tend to eat more soy foods. Now, there are healthier and less healthy soy foods. Tofu is really healthy food, but it's processed. It loses about half the fiber, half the minerals when you process from whole soybeans to tofu. Now, whole soybeans are so healthy, you can remove half nutrition, still have a really healthy food. But tempeh. Tempeh is a whole soy food. You can actually see the individual whole soy beans in that food. Plus has the added benefit of the fungal fermentation. And so then it's a source of ergothioneine and spermaidine, these two longevity vitamins that you're not going to get unless you're including some source of mushroom or other, something else from the fungi kingdom into your daily diet. So tempeh is a fantastic food, the most concentrated source of spermaidine per serving.
And so, you know, that's a, that's a fantastic thing to include in your daily diet.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: So do, do you try and write a book a year or this took three years?
[00:25:54] Speaker B: No, it takes a huge amount of time.
[00:25:58] Speaker A: I mean, you are kind of like the Taylor Swift of wellness, in my opinion, so, because the last one took three years of research, so. So how not to hurt? When do you think?
[00:26:11] Speaker B: So, I'm hoping to have it out by the end of 2026.
[00:26:16] Speaker A: Okay. Can I ask you just a little bit off of wellness now? How did you come up with the idea of nutritionfacts.org? and it being a nonprofit, and you be the books being probably one of the largest. I made a donation this morning, but one of the largest contributors, if not the largest two. The engine.
[00:26:40] Speaker B: Yeah. So, I mean, it all really goes back to my grandmother.
I was just a kid when my grandma was sent home in a wheelchair, essentially to die with end stage heart disease. She had so many bypass surgeries to basically run out of plumbing at some point, confined a wheelchair, crushing chest pain. Her life was over at age 65.
But then she heard about this guy, Nathan Pritikin, one of our early lifestyle medicine pioneers. What happened next is actually detailed in Pritikin's biography. Talks about Francis Gregor, my grandmother. They wheeled her in, and she walked out, though she was given a medical death since at age 65, thanks to a healthy diet, was able to enjoy another 31 years on this planet till age 96, to continue to enjoy her six grandkids, including me. So that's why I went into medicine. That's why I practiced lifestyle medicine, why I started nutritionfacts.org, why I wrote how not to die, why all the proceeds I received from all my books are donated directly to charity. I just want to do for everyone's family what Pritigin did for my family.
[00:27:44] Speaker A: That's amazing. I have a 25 year old son, and he started this nonprofit called Govglands that he works tirelessly on to aggregate, basically, to try and encourage every citizen of the United States, at least even though he's gonna go global with it, to learn how the government works and to actually go straight from the government site to get your information from there.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: Oh, cool.
[00:28:12] Speaker A: Because he believes that there's so much chaos and, you know, a lack of well being with all of this media manipulation and everything. And people need to really learn how to go straight to the source. But. But in just watching him become a young man and his mission be for this greater good, it. You just don't see that a lot, especially in your field. We are so used to being run by engines that are not looking out for us. So it's really remarkable that you run your entire mission in this way. You're not selling us something. You're not writing these things to sell us anything other than return us to, I think, our fullest potential, as long as we make the right decisions for ourselves. Well, you're gonna give us the real evidence, right?
[00:29:01] Speaker B: Yeah, one has to, because there's such a corrosive, corrupting influence of commercialism in this space. Now, look, if someone wants to make money selling toasters or something, that's fine, but making money selling misinformation, preying on people's fear of death and disease, to sell them supplements or crazy gadgets or whatever, that can do nothing. Or even worse, when at the same time we have tremendous power over our health, destiny and longevity, and that the vast majority of premature death and disabilities preventable with a healthy enough diet and lifestyle. But that's not profitable. You cannot make money on healthy food, right? Fruits and vegetables go bad, produce goes bad. It's perishable. That's not how you make money. In fact, many grocery stores actually lose money. It's a loss leader for them. They just want people to get into the store and buy really, and to come and get the produce and on their way out, buy something that's really profitable, like brown sugar water or all sorts of snack foods, that's where the profit comes from. You want to make money, you sell a little snack cake that sits on the shelf for a few months.
But look, the head of Coca Cola is not rubbing their hand together thinking, how can I contribute to the childhood obesity epidemic? They're thinking, how do I satisfy the needs of my shareholders in the next quarter? And you do that by selling liquid candy, which is dirt cheap to make because our payer money goes to subsidize the sugar industry.
They sell for a few bucks a bottle. It's almost all profitable. You're not going to ever see an ad on tv for sweet potatoes. There's just no money to be made. So the incentives are all wrong. The incentives are to get us to buy these profitable foods. That's why we're bombarded by ads for fast food and junk food and candy.
That's why really have to take personal responsibility for our own health, for our community's health, for our family's health, our children, because these, these food companies don't necessarily have our best interests at heart. Just don't have junk food in the house.
I mean, if you have cookies in the house, yes, you can white knuckle it for a while, but eventually you're going to have a bad day or whatever, some kind of rationalization, you're going to go for the cookie. But if the tastiest thing in your house is like an apple, it's like apple versus cookies, like apple versus non taste. You can't get hungry enough, you're going to eat that apple. And so it's just about, you know, controlling your environment, you know, and just adding that extra, taking advantage of our kind of natural tendency for energy conservation to sit on the couch or whatever and to, you know, yes, you go to the corner store, buy some junk, but if it's not just right in front of you, you know, it's easier to reach for the healthful option, right?
[00:31:49] Speaker A: No, no, no. I mean, and I'm writing a book right now that I'm, it's called Life stance because I'm kind of over this lifestyle business because a style is so easy for people to change. And I think it takes so much for people to make these changes. Right. And that's what I see with a lot of people. They start to try and go vegan and they're like, oh, my body just needs protein. This is what I hear all the time. And then now my audience is very much, because you did talk about the imperfect protein in meat that is more processed. But what about my audience that affords themselves grass fed? This is what they say, oh, it's grass fed. It's farm raised. It's, it's, it comes from my local butcher where the cows are treated like royalty until they aren't and they're in my freezer. You know, what, what would your argument be on why grass fed or this, this more, you know, luxury based animal product engine is not any better for your health and why plants are still.
[00:32:55] Speaker B: Well, I mean, it's better for your health and that it's more expensive, so people tend to eat less. Right. And so, I mean, you know, that's how people should think about meat, as a, you know, like some kind of special occasion food doesn't really matter what you eat in your birthdays, holiday special occasions, but on a day to day basis, really should try to eat healthy, centering our diets around whole plant foods. And, like, if meat were really expensive, then, you know, would be saved for kind of special occasions as opposed to, you know, dollar menu burgers where people, you know, thanks to, you know, taxpayer subsidies feed crops, where, you know, it's just kind of the kind of common day to day food. And so in that way, it's healthier. But I mean, but on a, you know, serving per serving basis, you know, it's packed with saturated fat and cholesterol and hormones and all that. Even if it's not injected with hormones, there's, it's hormones because this is an animal, it's an animal product. And, you know, so, you know, it's a probable carcinogen. Red meat is a probable carcinogen, increasing your risk of colorectal cancer, which is number one cancer killer among non smokers.
[00:34:03] Speaker A: And such a rise in it right.
[00:34:04] Speaker B: Now that people are saying, particularly among younger people.
[00:34:07] Speaker A: Younger people. Yeah.
[00:34:08] Speaker B: So that's why they just moved the recommendation for colon cancer screening from age 50 down to 45. Yeah, because we're seeing so much more in the younger population.
[00:34:18] Speaker A: Right, right. No, it's true. Um, so will you, will there be a day, even on a special occasion, that you have a steak?
[00:34:27] Speaker B: I mean, I. I'm. I just don't kind of have a taste for it anymore. Um, but, uh, yeah, and I try not to be a hypocrite and, you know, eat the kind of diet that encourage everybody to eat, but, you know, it's like these social smokers. I mean, there's some people that don't become addicted. They can pick up a few cigarettes at a party once a year. Don't become addicted. And, like, there's really no science in the world that says that, you know, that can really tease out any long term adverse health effects of something like that because, you know, your body has this remarkable capacity to bounce back from injury and insult and clear out all that tar and stuff.
But, I mean, the reason we tell people not to smoke at all, zero, rather than a few cigarettes a year, is afraid people are going to get addicted and then really suffer the consequences because they're constantly harming their body day after day, and their body just can't heal from the insult. And so, similarly, it's like, you know, there's certainly a level of junk food consumption or animal product consumption that your body should be able to, to resolve, but, you know, the fear is that it'll just become habitual, and that's when we really see the health problems start.
[00:35:44] Speaker A: Health problems. Right. So I spoke with Doctor Caldwell Esselstyn recently.
[00:35:49] Speaker B: Wonderful.
[00:35:50] Speaker A: He's so great. I, like, fell in love with his wife, Ann, who wouldn't? She's amazing. And she screamed from the kitchen on our conversation.
I was like, called. I was like, not even olive oil? Because he said, no oil.
And I said, not even olive oil. And Ann says, no oil.
So I wanted to know your take on oils.
[00:36:21] Speaker B: Yeah. If you are going to use an oil, then extra virgin olive oil would be the way to go. But, you know, it's the most concentrated source of calories on the planet. 120 calories per tablespoon. Even butter has fewer calories just because of little water in it. And so, you know, for 120 calories, you could just get an absolute mountain of nutrition by eating low calorie density foods like, you know, berries or grains, etcetera. And, you know, this, this we have. Most people are getting too many calories and so the last thing they need is relatively empty calories. Now there's some fat soluble nutrients in oils, you know, like vitamin e, but most nutrition has been stripped from it. So instead of eating walnut oil, eat walnuts. Right. Instead of avocado oil. Avocados.
[00:37:03] Speaker A: So eat flax instead of flax seed oil.
[00:37:06] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:37:07] Speaker A: You're still getting the benefits of the oil if you eat the whole thing.
[00:37:13] Speaker B: Because the oil is in the food.
[00:37:14] Speaker A: Yes, but I didn't know if it was a concentrated thing where you needed more to get the benefit or. No.
[00:37:22] Speaker B: Yeah. The only concern with eating the whole food source of olive oil is that olives, because of the branding process, end up too high in sodium. So we really want to, you know, we really want to try to stick under 1500 milligrams of sodium, which is the American Heart association recommendation. And so that does not include a lot of olives in one's daily diet.
[00:37:40] Speaker A: No. And I did hear you in the other interview where you said that trying an olive that has not been through the brine is disgusting. Basically.
[00:37:49] Speaker B: Yeah. That was, I learned that the hard way.
[00:37:51] Speaker A: Right. But I did, I did another thing that people are, you know, so hip too. And I, look, I could have made a lot of money. And people have asked me so many times to go into the supplement business and I'm always out because, oh, good for you.
[00:38:08] Speaker B: Good for you.
[00:38:10] Speaker A: Listen, I, it doesn't appeal to me, these things to make money off of harming people or having a lack of education, not even knowing what you're doing. I can't do it. I think it's just, it's just not who I am. But in this interview that I, that I saw you, the person that was interviewing you asked you about Brian Johnson's, like Johnson's supplement. He takes like 150 supplements or something. And at the time you were like, I can't even imagine. But I'm going to look into it. Did you ever look into it to see what he takes?
[00:38:45] Speaker B: And I'm not looking at the list, but there's just no way. I mean, I think I, yeah, I mean, but I mean, he's basically doing an experiment. He's kind of like doing it for science. I don't think he's really saying like, these are people should take these. But he wants to do experiments and so he adds sub bends and then he measures all these crazy, you know, biometrics disease and look, so as an end of one experiment, right, where he's just trying to tweak things. He's trying to, like, biohack and stuff. Okay, great. But I mean. I mean, I haven't. I don't know.
[00:39:16] Speaker A: I feel like it's an art. I feel like his life is like an art installation. Installation at this point.
[00:39:21] Speaker B: Right. But look. But the most important thing, he's eating healthy, right? He's eating the whole place. He's eating the whole plant foods. Right? Right. So look, if you want to take something from him, take the fact that he's, you know, eating healthy plant foods and not. And leave the crazy experimentation to someone who can spend a million dollars measuring their labs, right.
[00:39:46] Speaker A: So as somebody who has the mind that you have for research and what. And teasing out the research. Right. Like, this is where to go for this. This is the problem with this. This is. That's what I find so fascinating. And I appreciate you actually walking people through that kind of training that you can't just look at a little study or this study doesn't like. You got to go deeper and all of the things. Even though you ruined my life with wine. But that's okay. I still. I still. I still have a glass of wine here in there. And I. But I know that it's not good, and I know that the moderate to low drinking didn't check out. But, you know, whatever, it's the one thing that I'll do sometimes, but I don't ever. I don't ever get drunk or anything like that. But my point, though, is that you do talk about b vitamins, and I am vegan, and I just. I only have been taking this, like, vegan essential packet. It's just like a multi. I was taking a b. A liposomal bee. But what do you take?
[00:40:49] Speaker B: B twelve. So you just. You don't need.
[00:40:52] Speaker A: Only the. Only b twelve. You don't even need all the bees. You just.
[00:40:55] Speaker B: No, because you get your bees from. From. From, you know, food or in fact, I mean, in general. Right. We should try to get our nutrition from the produce aisle, not the sub. But there are two vitamins not made by plants. One is vitamin D, made by animals such as yourself when you walk outside. It's the sunshine vitamin. Yes, but some people don't get enough sunshine. And without sufficient sun exposure, you need to take supplemental vitamin D. The only other vitamin not made by plants is vitamin b twelve. Not made by animals either, but by little microbes that blanket the earth. So we used to get b twelve drinking out of a mountain stream or well, water or something. But now we chlorinate the water supply to kill off any bacteria. So we don't get a lot of b twelve in our water anymore, but we don't get a lot of cholera either. That's a good thing that we live in a nice sanitary world. Our fellow great apes get all the b twelve they need. Eating bugs, dirt and feces. I prefer supplements. 2000 micrograms once a week of a Santa cobalamin, which is the most shelf stable form. Vitamin B twelve is all the b twelve you need costs about $5 a year. Although at age 65, I'm encouraged to bump up to 1000 micrograms once a day.
But critically important, now, you can also do b twelve fortified foods. But, yeah, a regular, reliable source of vitamin b twelve is critical for anyone eating a healthy diet.
[00:42:14] Speaker A: Yeah, that's amazing. All right. I mean, I'm really very simple. People are always like, what are you taking? I'm like, I really don't take, I don't take food.
[00:42:22] Speaker B: You eat food. You eat healthy food.
[00:42:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you.
[00:42:26] Speaker B: You can tell them I get thousands of nutrients every single day. You think, Brian Johnson, he gets 150, I get thousands. Where do I get it from? And then you whip out your broccoli or you whip out, you know, I mean, these foods have so many bioactive compounds.
[00:42:42] Speaker A: Yeah, it's true. I do, I eat really healthy. But I also, and I've noticed a huge difference in, like, you know, just everything. I feel so, so, so much better. I do take this little like, rock shot thing. I'll do a half of it. It's sulforaphane. It's just, it's literally dried broccoli.
[00:42:59] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. The, of the supplements, the broccoli supplements that have been tested so far actually don't have the sulforaphane they purport to have. And so it no substitute for cruciferous vegetables that I can't imagine would harm you if it is actually what it says it is.
[00:43:15] Speaker A: It's literally a little packet of dried broccoli.
[00:43:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I, well, eat your broccoli.
[00:43:21] Speaker A: I won't take it anymore.
[00:43:22] Speaker B: I wouldn't. I mean, just, I mean, I don't think that particular brand has been tested, but these other ones, like broccoli, Max, and there's whole list, none of them have ever actually, it's very difficult to actually encapsulate or maintain in a shelf stable manner. Sulforaphane, because it's actually not found in broccoli. Right. It's a, it's a, it's a byproduct of chopping or chewing. Broccoli actually is produced by an enzyme and a precursor. And it's very difficult to actually kind of, I'm sure maybe one of these days they'll come up with a product where it actually works, but until then, we actually have to eat our cabbage family vegetables.
[00:44:02] Speaker A: Well, I actually like broccoli. I'm not, I'm okay. And I great it raw. And so I, and this one early magazine that you've contributed a bunch, we don't, we don't have any advertisers or anything. It's literally just like a mission driven thing that we do. But I, I made all of these slaws and I put a bunch with broccoli. I made all these different vegan slaws. So I love it.
[00:44:24] Speaker B: Oh, that's a great way. Oh, I love it. Okay, now you're making me hungry.
[00:44:28] Speaker A: I know. I'm sorry. I just literally. A couple more questions. I really, everybody, my main thing is that people will follow nutritionfacts.org. they will contribute to it, though. They'll read your books because that's, that's, that's the, you put, you give so much. It's, it's unbelievable.
The. Will you talk a little bit about glycotoxins?
[00:44:50] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, that's interesting.
[00:44:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:53] Speaker B: You know, it's, you dont hear a lot of people talking about it, but its just a critical piece of aging. I talk about it. I believe in the inflammation chapter, also in the glycation chapter. Ages or advanced glycation end products, which are known as gerontotoxins or glycotoxins. Age accelerating agents are implicated in a wide range of age related diseases. They are formed endogenously at body temperature, especially with, when we have high blood sugars. But their buildup in our tissues is largely determined by the ages we actually eat or we smoke. It's found in cigarette smoke, but found concentrated in high cooking, high protein and fat foods at high dry temperatures. So barbecuing, frying, baking, grilling, these kind of things that create ages. And so if we are going to eat meat, we need high humidity methods like boiling or steaming, making soups rather than broiling.
The worst foods are like bacon and hot dogs. Really want to stay away from those and really want to stick with the low glycotoxin foods. And that's like fruits and vegetables. And for people who are eating plant based diets, yes, it's better to eat raw nuts and seeds than roasted, because the roasting process does create some of these age. Similarly, like, we don't want to eat, like, cajun blackened tofu.
Ideally, we would use lower heat, higher humidity methods because, you know, it's a high fat, high protein food.
And so, you know, we don't want to be creating these glycotoxins. And then, of course, we want to keep our blood sugars relatively low by eating low glycemic clone foods. And, of course, stop smoking. Those are ways to decrease glycotoxins, which plays a role, kind of the glycation pathway of aging.
[00:47:01] Speaker A: Right. Do you do the little glucose monitor or. No, you just.
[00:47:05] Speaker B: I know. I do not.
[00:47:08] Speaker A: I don't do it either. But there's so many people. There's just so many.
[00:47:11] Speaker B: I mean, look, if it will motivate someone to eat healthier, great, right? I mean, if they put the thing on and they eat a bowl of froot loops and they're like, uh oh, this isn't good, and they stop eating froot loops, great. But it's like, do you really need this expensive gadget to be told not to eat froot loops? Just don't eat fruit loops.
[00:47:30] Speaker A: No, no, no. I know, but I think that some people are. I love that you love fruit because, you know, people are. They are very extreme in their diets and cutting things out or eating so much. Like, I just can't even. I can't even tell you how many people come to me with on keto or on this new primal bod thing where all they do is eat meat, even though it's farm raised, whatever. All they. All they do is eat meat. And by the way, I just want to just clarify that you were saying that it's not about that higher quality meat being. Okay. It was like, if you're going to have something once in a while, at least make it a higher quality, instead of, like, a cheeseburger from Burger King. But you weren't saying to go and that that meat is okay to consume all the time. Right?
[00:48:17] Speaker B: Correct. Right. It's the least harmful.
Yeah. And so there's studies.
[00:48:21] Speaker A: I mean, these diets they're eating.
[00:48:25] Speaker B: Yeah. No, no. Right? If you were gonna say wild game, which has low saturated fat content, so mousse or elk or something, these would. I mean, these would be less harmful than what then? Like, the grass fed beef, et cetera, et cetera, there are studies to show. But. So, for example, eating kangaroo meat, which is kind of like the venison of Australia, found to significantly cause less inflammation than eating, like, store bought beef. But. And so it's like, okay, you could argue that's a step in the right direction, but why not eat something that's actually anti inflammatory? If instead you had a bean burrito, you'd have an anti inflammatory effect and so causing less inflammation. Great. But why not actually, you know, end up better off than when you were starting before and you get that eating whole place plant foods.
[00:49:05] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, a kangaroo. I can't. I mean, but I'm. You're talking to someone who takes the spiders outside. I.
I can't with any of it.
[00:49:13] Speaker B: Don't eat the spiders either.
[00:49:14] Speaker A: So what do you do for fun?
I mean, I love my. I love what I do too.
[00:49:21] Speaker B: No, no, look, this is. I mean, once. Once people understand the predictable consequences of their actions and our fully informed, then I will, you know, relax on a beach somewhere with a, you know, but until there's. There's all this misinformation out there and, you know, people being, you know, misinformed and, and deluded by all these, you know, profitable but unhealthy messaging, I have to stick with it.
[00:49:50] Speaker A: Yeah. So we all have to do better or Doctor Greger will never be.
[00:49:55] Speaker B: I will never be on a beach.
[00:49:57] Speaker A: That's it?
[00:49:57] Speaker B: That's it.
[00:49:58] Speaker A: You said I'll be on a beach with.
What would it be?
[00:50:03] Speaker B: Oh, God.
[00:50:05] Speaker A: If you have to. Just like with my.
[00:50:07] Speaker B: With my. With my, you know, with my virgin strawberry daiquiri.
[00:50:12] Speaker A: Okay, all right. Because strawberries are a thing.
[00:50:15] Speaker B: Strawberries are a thing. Absolutely.
[00:50:17] Speaker A: What is it that they have?
[00:50:18] Speaker B: And it starts with a. Yeah, they have a fissiton, which is compound which helps remove these so called zombie cells, which contribute to inflammation in our tissues.
[00:50:27] Speaker A: Yeah. That's amazing. Do you listen to music?
[00:50:30] Speaker B: Oh, I do. In fact, I work listening to music. Not while I'm writing, but when I'm researching. I always have. Yeah, I always have music playing.
[00:50:38] Speaker A: What do you listen to?
[00:50:39] Speaker B: I'm a closet metalhead.
[00:50:41] Speaker A: How did. I just feel like I knew that, but, okay, so we weren't born that far apart, but. So who is it? Is it like guns n roses or is it like much eighties?
[00:50:52] Speaker B: No, no, eighties? Yeah, eighties. Eighties. Metal.
[00:50:55] Speaker A: Like AC DC.
[00:50:56] Speaker B: That's kind of what I grew up with. Oh, yes. A priest maybe. Maybe early crew before they sold out.
[00:51:04] Speaker A: Okay, wait, is it Van Halen.
[00:51:09] Speaker B: You'Re talking about? Kind of like hard rock? Yeah, that's like hard. Yeah. So I'm thinking a little more. A little more on the edgy. On the edgy side.
[00:51:18] Speaker A: Hedge like, what are we talking? Fleetwood Mac?
[00:51:21] Speaker B: Iron Maiden. Judas.
Yeah.
[00:51:25] Speaker A: All right. Okay. I love it. I love it. I felt like you had to. Had to.
You had to rock out.
[00:51:32] Speaker B: I am rocking out when I'm reading. I mean, otherwise, you just. I mean, it's just such dense, you know, boring material that I gotta. I keep. Gotta keep myself motivated.
[00:51:43] Speaker A: Right. And awake and. And investigative. Right. Because that truth seeking person. Because people right now, they just want a nugget to be able to. Especially now, they. They get dopamine from Instagram and things. So they're like, oh, I just need a little nugget to. To give to people so that people will give me back really what I want. Like, it's a very ego driven cycle, which is really tough, but you really don't talk about anything until you can truthfully talk about it.
[00:52:13] Speaker B: Right? Right. No, no. You really look at all the truth.
[00:52:15] Speaker A: You look at. You post all the time. You're this constant.
[00:52:20] Speaker B: We got a big team.
[00:52:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
Well, that's amazing. So you're. You're the one thing that you do for your health every day without fail, is really like, you just. You just. You just eat healthy and you walk on your walking machine and you have your mission driven. Right. These are the things you do.
[00:52:37] Speaker B: That's. That's. That's. That's what I do. That's what I do.
[00:52:39] Speaker A: And every time you learn, you apply. And are you.
Yeah. You want to live to be as old as your grandma or older.
[00:52:48] Speaker B: I want to beat grandma.
Don't take that sound clip out of context. I want to outlive grandma.
[00:52:57] Speaker A: My grandmother also lived to be 96.
[00:53:00] Speaker B: Wonderful.
[00:53:02] Speaker A: And I have always wanted to be, like, on the smucker's jar. Like, that's always been my. I'm like, I need to be, like, 109 or something.
[00:53:10] Speaker B: Wonderful. I love it. Let's do it.
[00:53:12] Speaker A: Being plant based, we can make it to 109. There's nothing that says that we need meat to make it to 109.
[00:53:19] Speaker B: No, no. In fact, they. I mean, the longest, healthiest lived populations around the world. These blue zones, where they have exceptional longevity, ten times the rate of centenarians, those living to triple digits, they all center their diets around whole plant foods. In fact, the number one recommendation of the blue zones food guidelines is make your diet at least 95% plant based.
[00:53:39] Speaker A: We're doing it. We're doing it. Although a fifth grader told me a couple of weeks ago that carrots have more microplastics in them than fish. And I was like, wait, what? You're ruining my life right now. Because the soil. We have to get into the soil, right? Cleaning up our soil.
[00:53:57] Speaker B: I have not seen carrot microplastic data.
[00:54:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. I know. Well, you know. Well, maybe for how not to hurt for the long term.
[00:54:07] Speaker B: I'll look it up. I'll look it up.
[00:54:09] Speaker A: Clean up. Clean up our soil.
You're just a complete joy. I don't want to take up any more of your time. I really just want people to listen to you.
If you ever need anything, please, I will help in any way. And I would love for you to try my life's work at some point.
[00:54:30] Speaker B: I appreciate it. Keep up the great work yourself.
[00:54:32] Speaker A: Thank you, Dr. Greger. Thank you.
